The first, of hopefully many, posts. In a battle of wits, the sexes and pretty high IQ's.
JenEFair: Can you elaborate on why you think it's a shortcut and dilutes the music scene?
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Hirp: Sure.
Before Idol came along, real musicians had to get out there and tour. Even if it was the latest bubble-gum pop star, that had a record company backing them. They had to grind it out to make it. There’s no game show that gets you to star in a movie. No game that gets an author published and on the best sellers list. No game show that you can win to become a pro-athlete. But if you win Idol, or even if you just make it far, you’re almost a lock to sell a million records. And then fade away.
And it dilutes the music scene, because music needs more singer/song writers than pop idols. The show itself removes the creativity in music and affects trends. Rather than trends taking their natural course, like how we saw bubble gum pop get real big in the late 90s, then the song writers like Norah Jones, John Mayer, and Jack Johnson came around 2000. Now every year, American Idol is one of the biggest stories in music. And it isn’t for new music; it’s for personalities singing songs we all know. And in the end, they aren’t going to be pop stars. Aside from Clarkson, they are all destined to either be country singers or adult contemporary artists. Neither genre sells like pop, or the global impact that pop has. But millions of people know who Taylor is, and few know Ray LaMontagne, Citizen Cope or Marc Broussard. Guys who put out better music, and have earned the success that Taylor has won.
The show is a platform for advertisers, not music. Ford, Verizon and whoever else, and commercializing music dilutes it faster than anything.
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JenEFair: Tell me how you really feel. :) Interesting perspective. I guess I've looked at it as an opportunity that many never get. And I don't begrudge them for battling out tens of thousands of contestants for the oppty to be there. They've earned that to some degree as well. Idol gets to promote not only their highs, but their lowest lows. But I hear you on the songwriting aspect, they're definitely not promoting that type of originality. And that could add a really interesting dynamic to the show. So are you a "rockstar" fan? They at least incorporate the original piece into the mix.
Ultimately, music is a fickle biz -- how many one-hit wonders have there been??? And how many real musicians got their place via another shortcut (sleeping w/the producer, etc) vs really earning it. So much of it is about timing -- right place, right time. And in this scenario, a popularity contest. I don't think the last two years put out the best talent ,so we'll see how long the show goes. Interesting that you put country into the fading out mix. There's a pretty big market out there that would disagree with you. And what about Jennifer Hudson to Dream Girls. They're given an opportunity, and they take advantage or not. What could be more American than that? And as for the advertisers, someone's got to pay. But watching has never made me want to buy a Ford or Verizon, so it's not working for me. :)
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Hirp: I don’t credit Idol for selling their lows. That’s just another symptom of a country full of people who will do anything for their 15 minutes of fame. Just cause those idiots are out there, doesn’t mean we should give them a platform. The people that get to the finals are usually pretty talented, and could all probably have careers on Broadway. But I’d rather that they tried to make it by singing their own music, or at least original music. I know Celine Dion and Mariah Carrey don’t write their own stuff.
And yes, being in the right place at the right time is a big part of making it in music. But to some extent, you have to put yourself in the right place and still take advantage of the opportunity. Which is what Idol contestants are trying to do. The thing is, the show can go on for years without producing the best talent, because it isn’t about the best talent. Once the next season begins, no one really cares much about last year’s winner. They may or may not sell, but everyone is on to the new contestants. Music is fickle biz, and Idol thrives on that fact. Clarkson is the one who has really separated herself. And I see it a lot like someone leaving a boy band and making it on their own. Like Timberlake, at first he was former N’Sync member Justin.now he’s just Justin. Kelly isn’t looked at as American Idol winner, Kelly Clarkson anymore. Now she’s Kelly Clarkson. That’ll prove to be very rare.
As for Country, sure it’s pretty big. But this isn’t supposed to be Nashville Star, it’s supposed to be about artists with broad appeal. Very few country singers find crossover success, and remain respected in Nashville. I don’t mean that Country is fading, but if you look at billboard you won’t see but a few artists in the top 40. Finding a niche there is a smart move, it’s a much more loyal fan base than pop music.
Jennifer Hudson is a nice story, and from what I hear she did a fantastic job in the movie. But did she take the place of someone who was perhaps more deserving? Someone who has paid their dues, but she got the role because they knew they could get Idol fans interested simply on the fact that she’s in the movie? Same thing happens in movies already, when Beyonce or back when Madonna got roles just based on their music careers.
You haven’t purchased a Ford or Verizon, thank god, but you knew the other day that you needed a Verizon phone to vote via text. That’s crazy to me. I like commercials, but I want to see them during breaks, not as part of the show. Product placement is one thing, this is something different. And no, I don’t watch Rockstar. Even though my girl Brook is part of the show, I pretty much avoid reality tv on principle. Just as Idol dilutes music, reality tv dilutes tv. Instead of coming up with a creative idea for a show, having writers write something smart, and actors make it interesting we have 30 minute shows that are dressed up infomercials, that make networks buckets of money and offer very little in return. Seinfeld gave us jokes we use 10 years later, do you even remember your favorite Simon comment?
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JenEFair: Not to be rude... oops, sorry, that was a Simon intro.
Seriously, I have LOTS of issues with this show, even though I watch it. I think it can capitalize on our worst human moments, and sometimes the judges say things that are just plain wrong to say to another human being. I'm with you in general on reality tv. I only watch the ones that are like talent shows, probably cause I always wished I could sing. So I see it a little different from traditional reality because you get glimpses of the contestant's lives, but that's not what the show is about. And I like the idea of original music, but to your own notation, lots of great voices don't necessarily have songwriting talent. And I think that's ok. They still have an amazing talent to perform, and I'm so jealous of that.
I do have to strongly disagree with you on the Jennifer Hudson front. You even said that the idols are forgotten once the season is over, and I haven't heard boo about her since she was voted off. The fact that she won big awards for her role tells me that she was deserving, though. It may have gotten her to the table, but I think her talent got her the role. Frankly, I was more impressed with her singing than Beyonce at the Academy Awards. And you don't have visibility to what dues these folks may have paid outside of the show. Just had to get that on record!
And finally, I do agree on the commercialism. But that's sort of part of the game of our economy. And being of the marketing biz, I have a hard time blaming them! It happens because we allow it.
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Hirp: For every Jennifer Hudson, there’s a William Hung though or that weird Clay guy. He creeps me out.
And shows like this, Survivor and Amazing Race are part of the reason why a great show like Studio 60 isn’t going to last. It’s all part of the dumbing down of America. Why would a network spend the money to produce quality TV, when they can come up with a gimmick show like Idol? No writers or actors to worry about contract negotiations. And they can reinvent the show every season if they see ratings slip.
We had this show 15 years ago, it was Star Search and it was Saturday afternoons. Put it back in that time slot and I’ll be fine with it. The fact that it’s taking up time slots that could be filled with something creative is my biggest complaint. Even if it were just CSI: Wichita or Law & Order: Neighbor to a Friend of a Victims Special Unit With Intent. At least they could get creative with naming the shows, and show us more Carruso-like acting.
At one point, Reality TV might have been interesting. Then it jumped the shark, and now it’s all about people who want to be famous just to be famous. We have Paris Hilton, had Anna Nicole..there’s no reason we should know who these people are. William Hung? Willing to make a fool of oneself shouldn’t make one a household name.
Hirp: For every Jennifer Hudson, there’s a William Hung though or that weird Clay guy. He creeps me out.
And shows like this, Survivor and Amazing Race are part of the reason why a great show like Studio 60 isn’t going to last. It’s all part of the dumbing down of America. Why would a network spend the money to produce quality TV, when they can come up with a gimmick show like Idol? No writers or actors to worry about contract negotiations. And they can reinvent the show every season if they see ratings slip.
We had this show 15 years ago, it was Star Search and it was Saturday afternoons. Put it back in that time slot and I’ll be fine with it. The fact that it’s taking up time slots that could be filled with something creative is my biggest complaint. Even if it were just CSI: Wichita or Law & Order: Neighbor to a Friend of a Victims Special Unit With Intent. At least they could get creative with naming the shows, and show us more Carruso-like acting.
At one point, Reality TV might have been interesting. Then it jumped the shark, and now it’s all about people who want to be famous just to be famous. We have Paris Hilton, had Anna Nicole..there’s no reason we should know who these people are. William Hung? Willing to make a fool of oneself shouldn’t make one a household name.
Maybe Kelly would have made it, maybe not. Can’t know. Would it have been a loss? Not a great one. She’s good, but she isn’t exactly changing the face of music or anything.
Of course Reality TV is smart business. It has no overhead compared to quality shows. Why did Commander and Chief fail? What night was it on, and what Reality TV did it go against? Also, I must admit, another show about the white house? West Wing made it, and that took almost two years to build its audience. With Reality TV, networks can’t give a show time to make it. Seinfelds ratings were horrible it’s first season. Had there been “Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader” or whatever waiting in the wings, we never would have seen 10 seasons of ground breaking TV.
What came first, bad TV or the moronic audience? I’m not sure, can’t you use your work to finance a study for that? I happen to believe that people will watch just about anything you put in front of them. Reality TV proves that. But we all have ADD now, so shows have to be fresh and original to keep an audience engaged. There’s 800 channels, and with DVR, the viewer has a million other choices. But stick someone acting like an idiot on, and everyone will watch. What’s next? Honestly, I think America wants to see someone die in one of these shows. Either someone snaps and kills, or offs themselves.
Wait for the Reality TV backlash. It’s already started in movies. The big budget, mindless fluff movies are doing horrible. The smarter movies are making the money now. And till Idol appeared, music was going more towards lyrics and song writing again after everyone got over the boy bands.
Of course Reality TV is smart business. It has no overhead compared to quality shows. Why did Commander and Chief fail? What night was it on, and what Reality TV did it go against? Also, I must admit, another show about the white house? West Wing made it, and that took almost two years to build its audience. With Reality TV, networks can’t give a show time to make it. Seinfelds ratings were horrible it’s first season. Had there been “Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader” or whatever waiting in the wings, we never would have seen 10 seasons of ground breaking TV.
What came first, bad TV or the moronic audience? I’m not sure, can’t you use your work to finance a study for that? I happen to believe that people will watch just about anything you put in front of them. Reality TV proves that. But we all have ADD now, so shows have to be fresh and original to keep an audience engaged. There’s 800 channels, and with DVR, the viewer has a million other choices. But stick someone acting like an idiot on, and everyone will watch. What’s next? Honestly, I think America wants to see someone die in one of these shows. Either someone snaps and kills, or offs themselves.
Wait for the Reality TV backlash. It’s already started in movies. The big budget, mindless fluff movies are doing horrible. The smarter movies are making the money now. And till Idol appeared, music was going more towards lyrics and song writing again after everyone got over the boy bands.
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JenEFair: But here's a question for you -- without Idol, would there have been a Kelly Clarkson? And if not, would that have been a loss to the industry? And finally, while I am not a general fan of reality TV, can you blame the folks who put it on if the viewers want it? Putting on great shows that nobody watches is just not good business (just sucks for those few of us that do watch -- I loved Commander-in-Chief w/Geena Davis, and it bit the dust). So if it's not the creators and producers' faults, how do you change the mindset of what viewers want to consume?
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Hirp: Maybe Kelly would have made it, maybe not. Can’t know. Would it have been a loss? Not a great one. She’s good, but she isn’t exactly changing the face of music or anything.
Of course Reality TV is smart business. It has no overhead compared to quality shows. Why did Commander and Chief fail? What night was it on, and what Reality TV did it go against? Also, I must admit, another show about the white house? West Wing made it, and that took almost two years to build its audience. With Reality TV, networks can’t give a show time to make it. Seinfelds ratings were horrible it’s first season. Had there been “Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader” or whatever waiting in the wings, we never would have seen 10 seasons of ground breaking TV.
What came first, bad TV or the moronic audience? I’m not sure, can’t you use your work to finance a study for that? I happen to believe that people will watch just about anything you put in front of them. Reality TV proves that. But we all have ADD now, so shows have to be fresh and original to keep an audience engaged. There’s 800 channels, and with DVR, the viewer has a million other choices. But stick someone acting like an idiot on, and everyone will watch. What’s next? Honestly, I think America wants to see someone die in one of these shows. Either someone snaps and kills, or offs themselves.
Wait for the Reality TV backlash. It’s already started in movies. The big budget, mindless fluff movies are doing horrible. The smarter movies are making the money now. And till Idol appeared, music was going more towards lyrics and song writing again after everyone got over the
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